Recently, the christian pastor, John MacArthur, said that there is no such thing as a person being born gay, a person with a homosexual orientation. But rather he is a person that simply chooses to commit gay acts, much like a bank robber chooses to rob banks. He says that the bank robber should not identify as a "bank robber" and similarly, the gay person should not identify as "gay".
I disagree with that. He obviously doesn't understand sexual orientation.
What's your thoughts on this matter?
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I guess my question would be, does it matter if someone is born gay? Do humans not have the right to be attracted to who they are attracted to? I am a heterosexual woman who is attracted to rugged outdoorsy men who work with their hands but also have the capacity for deep thought and conversation. Was I born attracted to that type of man? No I don't think so. It's just what really attracts me. You can tell me it's "my choice" but I can tell you I can't change that attraction. You can't make me be attracted to metro-sexual men because I'm just not.
Some people are fond of saying, "Homosexuality isn't natural." You know what isn't natural? Getting into a big metal tube and traveling through the air at 500+ mph and yet people fly everyday. Cars aren't natural. Artificial lungs, vinyl siding, and Twinkies aren't natural. On the flip side, not everything natural is good for you either. Arsenic, and crocodiles, and poo are all natural.
Natural is defined as: "Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind." In every species of animal, same sex attraction exists. It occurs in the natural world, therefore, it's natural. I think that a human being attracted to another human being and ultimately desiring an intimate relationship with them is quite natural. Regardless of their gender.
But none of that means it isn't possible that there is some genetic propensity that we are not yet aware of that causes people to be attracted to their own gender.
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
How can you say that we are all wired for the opposite sex when clearly we are not? If we were, there would not be any such thing as homosexuality because people aren't going to be attracted to their own sex if they are not wired that way.
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
Here's a fun fact for you. If god took a rib from Adam to make his partner, his genotype would be 44-XY, thus being a MALE... (Ergo - Adam and STEVE)
In the diploid genome of human beings there are 46 chromosomes, 44 of them are autosomes and two are sex chromosomes. The individual inherits one of these chromosomes from each parent.
The human sex chromosomes are called X chromosome and Y chromosome. Individuals having two X chromosomes (44 + XX) are female. Individuals having one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (44 + XY) are male. Because...science.
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
How can you say that we are all wired for the opposite sex when clearly we are not? If we were, there would not be any such thing as homosexuality because people aren't going to be attracted to their own sex if they are not wired that way.
But that's the point of Dr MacArthur's post. We are NOT hardwired for same sex attraction. The Bible, the holy Word of God, is very clear. No one is denying that people have homosexual sex but when they do, they do so outside the will of God and unnecessarily so. There have been homosexual acts all through history, even in biblical times. But it was of their choosing and not something Almighty God had anything to do with.
Tea Party Man wrote: But that's the point of Dr MacArthur's post. We are NOT hardwired for same sex attraction. The Bible, the holy Word of God, is very clear. No one is denying that people have homosexual sex but when they do, they do so outside the will of God and unnecessarily so. There have been homosexual acts all through history, even in biblical times. But it was of their choosing and not something Almighty God had anything to do with.
First you have to tell me which god you are speaking of and then give me evidence of said god's existence. I'm not interested in what you think an imaginary sky-daddy says. I am interested in facts. There is no evidence that a supernatural god has anything to do with anything. What we do know for a fact is that people are attracted to people. And we are all attracted to different things. Your claim is that we ARE wired. You said we are wired for opposite sex attraction. If that were true then no one would ever be attracted to their own gender. So let me get this straight... according to you we ARE wired for opposite sex attraction and according to MacArthur we are NOT wired for same sex attraction. So you both are saying the same thing basically. My argument is that there is either no such thing as being sexually wired or we are hardwired and some are hardwired towards their own gender and some are not. When something is hardwired it is unmodifiable. So how can we be hardwired towards the opposite sex when so many are attracted to the same sex? You can't have it both ways. Either all of us are hardwired towards the gender we are attracted to or none of us are and we get to grow into our attractions.
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
The Bible teaches (if you take it for what it says - instead of what your preacher says it says) in Romans 1, that the reason a homosexual is a homosexual is because they didn't want anything to do with God and God gave them up - along with other sinners too. And of course, that puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the homosexual, himself.
In my own case, I knew that it wasn't true that I didn't want anything to do with God. I had grown up WANTING to be "used of God". I was in church every time the doors were open. And yet, I was homosexually orientated.
Moreover, I had asked Jesus to "come into my heart" when I was a boy, putting my faith in his shed blood on the cross. And if you take the Bible literally, I should have been one of the "once were some of you" of I Cor 6:9. That didn't work either.
It doesn't matter what any preacher says, including this MacArthur character, there are people who have always been orientated toward the same sex.
And if you could get preachers to be honest about it, they would tell you that they have counseled men who have come to them insisting that they didn't want to be gay but were anyway.
What a slap in the face of those men to be told that what they went through wasn't even real - because the Apostle Paul said so.
The fact of the matter is that a truly homosexual person is homosexual from birth. He is orientated that way, just as a heterosexual is orientated towards the opposite sex. If religious people don't want to accept that, that's their right. But it isn't realistic.
Tea Party Man wrote: But that's the point of Dr MacArthur's post. We are NOT hardwired for same sex attraction. The Bible, the holy Word of God, is very clear. No one is denying that people have homosexual sex but when they do, they do so outside the will of God and unnecessarily so. There have been homosexual acts all through history, even in biblical times. But it was of their choosing and not something Almighty God had anything to do with.
First you have to tell me which god you are speaking of and then give me evidence of said god's existence. I'm not interested in what you think an imaginary sky-daddy says. I am interested in facts. There is no evidence that a supernatural god has anything to do with anything. What we do know for a fact is that people are attracted to people. And we are all attracted to different things. Your claim is that we ARE wired. You said we are wired for opposite sex attraction. If that were true then no one would ever be attracted to their own gender. So let me get this straight... according to you we ARE wired for opposite sex attraction and according to MacArthur we are NOT wired for same sex attraction. So you both are saying the same thing basically. My argument is that there is either no such thing as being sexually wired or we are hardwired and some are hardwired towards their own gender and some are not. When something is hardwired it is unmodifiable. So how can we be hardwired towards the opposite sex when so many are attracted to the same sex? You can't have it both ways. Either all of us are hardwired towards the gender we are attracted to or none of us are and we get to grow into our attractions.
There is only ONE God, Jehovah God, the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. There is no other. And when I say that we are hardwired I mean that that is God's plan for us, that he put it in us to be that way. That doesn't mean we can't stray. That's why it is a sin when we go astray because Jehovah And when man becomes full of sin, that is exactly what he does. The reason people become attracted to the same sex is because of their cold and wicked hearts.
There is only ONE God, Jehovah God, the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. There is no other. And when I say that we are hardwired I mean that that is God's plan for us, that he put it in us to be that way. That doesn't mean we can't stray. That's why it is a sin when we go astray because Jehovah And when man becomes full of sin, that is exactly what he does. The reason people become attracted to the same sex is because of their cold and wicked hearts.
I feel sad because there is no way to have a logical discussion with someone who insists that their invisible friend is real. You offer no evidence for his existence and yet we are supposed to alter what we know about humanity for what you say your invisible friend wants. I have some wonderful gay and bi friends, none of whom have cold or wicked hearts. On the contrary, they are sweet and loving and giving and just want to be understood and loved like everyone else. They don't resemble the "cold and wicked" creatures you try to portray.
I would suggest that you rethink your position and come back with a logical argument that doesn't invoke the non-existent. I totally respect your desire to follow the religion of your choice, but you don't get to call good people cold and wicked and imply that homosexuals are dirty or sinful or strange without some credible reason for treating them like that. And "God said so" is not a credible reason. You can yap until you are blue in the face and it doesn't make your god one bit more real than Apep, or Horus, or Vishnu, or Ziva or any or the other thousands of deities that people worship. And when you realize what it is that makes you not believe in those other gods, then you will begin to understand why others don't believe in yours.
So please try again to give us an answer to the OP that is based in reality.
-- Edited by ThatGirl on Monday 10th of July 2017 02:25:37 AM
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
The Bible teaches (if you take it for what it says - instead of what your preacher says it says) in Romans 1, that the reason a homosexual is a homosexual is because they didn't want anything to do with God and God gave them up - along with other sinners too. And of course, that puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the homosexual, himself.
In my own case, I knew that it wasn't true that I didn't want anything to do with God. I had grown up WANTING to be "used of God". I was in church every time the doors were open. And yet, I was homosexually orientated.
Moreover, I had asked Jesus to "come into my heart" when I was a boy, putting my faith in his shed blood on the cross. And if you take the Bible literally, I should have been one of the "once were some of you" of I Cor 6:9. That didn't work either.
It doesn't matter what any preacher says, including this MacArthur character, there are people who have always been orientated toward the same sex.
And if you could get preachers to be honest about it, they would tell you that they have counseled men who have come to them insisting that they didn't want to be gay but were anyway.
What a slap in the face of those men to be told that what they went through wasn't even real - because the Apostle Paul said so.
The fact of the matter is that a truly homosexual person is homosexual from birth. He is orientated that way, just as a heterosexual is orientated towards the opposite sex. If religious people don't want to accept that, that's their right. But it isn't realistic.
Great post.
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
The Bible teaches (if you take it for what it says - instead of what your preacher says it says) in Romans 1, that the reason a homosexual is a homosexual is because they didn't want anything to do with God and God gave them up - along with other sinners too. And of course, that puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the homosexual, himself.
In my own case, I knew that it wasn't true that I didn't want anything to do with God. I had grown up WANTING to be "used of God". I was in church every time the doors were open. And yet, I was homosexually orientated.
Moreover, I had asked Jesus to "come into my heart" when I was a boy, putting my faith in his shed blood on the cross. And if you take the Bible literally, I should have been one of the "once were some of you" of I Cor 6:9. That didn't work either.
It doesn't matter what any preacher says, including this MacArthur character, there are people who have always been orientated toward the same sex.
And if you could get preachers to be honest about it, they would tell you that they have counseled men who have come to them insisting that they didn't want to be gay but were anyway.
What a slap in the face of those men to be told that what they went through wasn't even real - because the Apostle Paul said so.
The fact of the matter is that a truly homosexual person is homosexual from birth. He is orientated that way, just as a heterosexual is orientated towards the opposite sex. If religious people don't want to accept that, that's their right. But it isn't realistic.
Eyesareopen,
I believe you are SINcere. I believe you really believe what you have said. But it's obvious that you had a form of godliness but you denied the power thereof. If we are not careful, we can be deceived by the devil to think we are saved when we really aren't. Because if you were really transformed by the renewing of your mind through the blood of Christ, you would not be gay - even if you had been before. The blood of the lamb transforms.
The Bible tells us that sometimes God visits the sins of our fathers on the second and third generations and I firmly believe that that is what we see alot with people who experiment with homosexuality. Even if you are gay from birth (which I don't believe you are), just because you are gay doesn't mean you should give into it.
There is only ONE God, Jehovah God, the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. There is no other. And when I say that we are hardwired I mean that that is God's plan for us, that he put it in us to be that way. That doesn't mean we can't stray. That's why it is a sin when we go astray because Jehovah And when man becomes full of sin, that is exactly what he does. The reason people become attracted to the same sex is because of their cold and wicked hearts.
I feel sad because there is no way to have a logical discussion with someone who insists that their invisible friend is real. You offer no evidence for his existence and yet we are supposed to alter what we know about humanity for what you say your invisible friend wants. I have some wonderful gay and bi friends, non of whom have cold or wicked hearts. On the contrary, they are sweet and loving and giving and just want to be understood and loved like everyone else. They don't resemble the "cold and wicked" creatures you try to portray.
I would suggest that you rethink your position and come back with a logical argument that doesn't invoke the non-existent. I totally respect your desire to follow the religion of your choice, but you don't get to call good people cold and wicked and imply that homosexuals are dirty or sinful or strange without some credible reason for treating them like that. And "God said so" is not a credible reason. You can yap until you are blue in the face and it doesn't make your god one bit more real than Apep, or Horus, or Vishnu, or Ziva or any or the other thousands of deities that people worship. And when you realize what it is that makes you not believe in those other gods, then you will begin to understand why others don't believe in yours.
So please try again to give us an answer to the OP that is based in reality.
I didn't mean that just gay people have cold and wicked hearts. We all do. The Word of God tells us that we are all wicked and our righteousness is as filthy rags.
The evidence of God is everywhere if we will only look. It's in the stars, in the leaves that bud and fall each year, in the sun and moon and stars, in the ever changing seasons. I don't know to give you evidence of my relationship with him anymore than you can give me evidence that you love your loved one.
-- Edited by Tea Party Man on Sunday 9th of July 2017 07:19:53 PM
I can't give you evidence of my love for my spouse (Other than a commitment that has lasted several decades) but I can give you evidence of his existence. Your argument of "God said" is literally the equivalent of me saying I'm right because my fairy godmother said so. The evidence of God is NOT everywhere. You're making that up. We know how stars are born and why seasons change and how deciduous trees leaf out. It's not mystical or supernatural. I would really love to hear you respond from a point of reality. I would like to hear YOUR thoughts on the question. Maybe you have some research or study that we can all read? I realize that to you "God said" sounds like an answer but it's not. It is weak and it shuts down the thought process. Are people born gay with a homosexual orientation? Can you give a reality based answer to that?
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
If we know how the stars come about, how the leaves bud, etc, we simply know the process in which God put those things into motion. There is a process or manner for everything. God's process. Even if the Big Bang were true, which it isn't, God was the one who caused it.
"Evidence" is over rated. For by grace are ye saved, through faith, . . . .
As far as a person being born gay, what I have is common sense. I am not a scientist. I don't have a study to point you to. I do have the Word of God and God doesn't make mistakes.
I don't care about man made evidence - by the scientists. I am a student of the Word. You trust in man, I trust in God. Man's "evidence" constantly changes, God's Word doesn't.
It's not weak to believe in God. Some of the wisest men of all time have believed in God. What we see as fact today is disproved tomorrow. Not so, with the word of God.
You have a lot to learn about science. It's not man made evidence. It's man discovered evidence. And the reason things change is because it is an ongoing process. As we learn more things we have to adjust the way we do things because we have more knowledge. You say the big bang isn't true. Well no scientist claims that it is the absolute truth. What it is however is the best explanation that we have to date of how things began based on the fact that we know we live in an expanding universe where everything is moving out from each other. It is this knowledge that allows us to send shuttles, space stations, and satellites into space where they won't bump into planets, stars, comets, space junk, etc. It's why you are receiving access to the internet right now making it possible to read this. The Bible has been disproven all along. The earth is not flat, unicorns do not exist, snakes and donkeys do not talk, slavery is immoral, banging your wife's handmaid so you can conceive a child is rape, and homosexuality is not evil. You say "evidence is overrated." I say hogwash! Evidence is what matters. Faith is what you have when you have no evidence.
-- Edited by ThatGirl on Sunday 9th of July 2017 11:33:47 PM
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
The Bible teaches (if you take it for what it says - instead of what your preacher says it says) in Romans 1, that the reason a homosexual is a homosexual is because they didn't want anything to do with God and God gave them up - along with other sinners too. And of course, that puts the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the homosexual, himself.
In my own case, I knew that it wasn't true that I didn't want anything to do with God. I had grown up WANTING to be "used of God". I was in church every time the doors were open. And yet, I was homosexually orientated.
Moreover, I had asked Jesus to "come into my heart" when I was a boy, putting my faith in his shed blood on the cross. And if you take the Bible literally, I should have been one of the "once were some of you" of I Cor 6:9. That didn't work either.
It doesn't matter what any preacher says, including this MacArthur character, there are people who have always been orientated toward the same sex.
And if you could get preachers to be honest about it, they would tell you that they have counseled men who have come to them insisting that they didn't want to be gay but were anyway.
What a slap in the face of those men to be told that what they went through wasn't even real - because the Apostle Paul said so.
The fact of the matter is that a truly homosexual person is homosexual from birth. He is orientated that way, just as a heterosexual is orientated towards the opposite sex. If religious people don't want to accept that, that's their right. But it isn't realistic.
Eyesareopen,
I believe you are SINcere. I believe you really believe what you have said. But it's obvious that you had a form of godliness but you denied the power thereof. If we are not careful, we can be deceived by the devil to think we are saved when we really aren't. Because if you were really transformed by the renewing of your mind through the blood of Christ, you would not be gay - even if you had been before. The blood of the lamb transforms.
The Bible tells us that sometimes God visits the sins of our fathers on the second and third generations and I firmly believe that that is what we see alot with people who experiment with homosexuality. Even if you are gay from birth (which I don't believe you are), just because you are gay doesn't mean you should give into it.
May you find peace.
Tea Party Man,
You say that if we are not careful, we can be deceived by the Devil. . . .
Is the Devil everywhere like God is said to be? Or are you saying that out of 8 BILLION people, the Devil chose me to harrass? I don't know whether to be honored or scared.
I'm not going to spend much time arguing with you about the Bible because I will never convince you. As ThatGirl has shown, your mind is closed to realiity. And that's a pity.
That you would call me sinful and cursed by God because of something like sexual orientation, in the year 2017, is just sad. But let me assure you that for the last many years, I have had MUCH MORE peace than I did when I was constantly conflicted and living a lie.
I have a nice little song for you. It conveys my attitude about this. Here it is . . .
I say poTAto and you say poTAHto. I say toMAYto and you say toMAHto. You say I wasn't born gay and I say I was.
I guess my question would be, does it matter if someone is born gay? Do humans not have the right to be attracted to who they are attracted to? I am a heterosexual woman who is attracted to rugged outdoorsy men who work with their hands but also have the capacity for deep thought and conversation. Was I born attracted to that type of man? No I don't think so. It's just what really attracts me. You can tell me it's "my choice" but I can tell you I can't change that attraction. You can't make me be attracted to metro-sexual men because I'm just not.
Some people are fond of saying, "Homosexuality isn't natural." You know what isn't natural? Getting into a big metal tube and traveling through the air at 500+ mph and yet people fly everyday. Cars aren't natural. Artificial lungs, vinyl siding, and Twinkies aren't natural. On the flip side, not everything natural is good for you either. Arsenic, and crocodiles, and poo are all natural.
Natural is defined as: "Existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind." In every species of animal, same sex attraction exists. It occurs in the natural world, therefore, it's natural. I think that a human being attracted to another human being and ultimately desiring an intimate relationship with them is quite natural. Regardless of their gender.
But none of that means it isn't possible that there is some genetic propensity that we are not yet aware of that causes people to be attracted to their own gender.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
Tea Party Man,
This may be true from Christian sacred writings or from Islamic sacred writings but it isnt true in reality.
As ThatGirl pointed out, same sex attraction happens all over the world and has for since time began. We know it was happening 4000 years ago or Murderous Moses wouldn't have seen the need to include it in his litany of things for which he would kill you.
As she pointed out, it happens even in the animal kingdom.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
Tea Party Man,
This may be true from Christian sacred writings or from Islamic sacred writings but it isnt true in reality.
As ThatGirl pointed out, same sex attraction happens all over the world and has for since time began. We know it was happening 4000 years ago or Murderous Moses wouldn't have seen the need to include it in his litany of things for which he would kill you.
As she pointed out, it happens even in the animal kingdom.
It's your responsibility to accept reality.
Thanks
lots of things have happened since "time began". Murder, robbers and everything else. That doesn't make it right just because it has always happened. And by the way, you can't compare Christianity with Islam. That's like comparing apples with oranges.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
Tea Party Man,
This may be true from Christian sacred writings or from Islamic sacred writings but it isnt true in reality.
As ThatGirl pointed out, same sex attraction happens all over the world and has for since time began. We know it was happening 4000 years ago or Murderous Moses wouldn't have seen the need to include it in his litany of things for which he would kill you.
As she pointed out, it happens even in the animal kingdom.
It's your responsibility to accept reality.
Thanks
lots of things have happened since "time began". Murder, robbers and everything else. That doesn't make it right just because it has always happened. And by the way, you can't compare Christianity with Islam. That's like comparing apples with oranges.
My point wasn't that it is right or wrong. My point is that it is real. The op asked us was there such a thing as a gay person or not. If you feel that gay people are on a par with murders and robbers, that your right.
I mentioned Christianity and Islam because there are verses in both holy books that call for the killing of gay people. I wouldn't know about how they differ in areas of doctrine but when it come to killing gays, they are in agreement: just ask Pastor Steven Anderson here in the states or watch an ISIS you tube video of them throwing gays off of buildings.
Recently, the christian pastor, John MacArthur, said that there is no such thing as a person being born gay, a person with a homosexual orientation. But rather he is a person that simply chooses to commit gay acts, much like a bank robber chooses to rob banks. He says that the bank robber should not identify as a "bank robber" and similarly, the gay person should not identify as "gay".
What's your thoughts on this matter?
There is NOT such a thing as a gay person. That is something that has been "trumped" up by the press. All people are by design heterosexual. They may try that life but by nature they are just a heterosexual being influenced by the liberal media. The good news is that God is waiting with open arms for them to return. The press is such an evil force in our country and so strong.
He's right. God doesn't make mistakes. We are all "wired" for the opposite sex because that is His plan. When a person strays from that, it is his own doing and God will not be mocked.
I have studied the Bible for years, yet I cannot find anything that the Bible has to say about androgyny. Some people are born with all or part of both sets of reproductive organs. To which sex does the Bible say that those people are "hard-wired?"
There is NOT such a thing as a gay person. That is something that has been "trumped" up by the press. All people are by design heterosexual. They may try that life but by nature they are just a heterosexual being influenced by the liberal media. The good news is that God is waiting with open arms for them to return. The press is such an evil force in our country and so strong.
The press? How long do you think the press has been around?
__________________
You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.
"Male and female created he them; and blessed them,". People of an adrogynous nature are a fluke, a mistake in nature and have nothing to do with God's plan. It is very clear that God intends men to be with women and I would imagine that God will overlook a person with both sexes and not hold them accountable. It is not their fault but even so does not change God's plan for mankind. You only need one verse which is very clear to understand how things should be.
Recently, the christian pastor, John MacArthur, said that there is no such thing as a person being born gay, a person with a homosexual orientation. But rather he is a person that simply chooses to commit gay acts, much like a bank robber chooses to rob banks. He says that the bank robber should not identify as a "bank robber" and similarly, the gay person should not identify as "gay".
What's your thoughts on this matter?
There is NOT such a thing as a gay person. That is something that has been "trumped" up by the press. All people are by design heterosexual. They may try that life but by nature they are just a heterosexual being influenced by the liberal media. The good news is that God is waiting with open arms for them to return. The press is such an evil force in our country and so strong.
Mag,
I agree with you that the press CAN be an evil force. But there are alot of good people in the press too, reporting honestly. But surely you don't think that homosexuals have just come about in the last 50 years as a result of the press?!
Weren't there some homosexuals way back in Moses' time? Otherwise, why did he feel the need to warn them not to "lie" with one another? The "press" has nothing to do with sexual orientation.
